For what kind of reader did you write The Creation of the Self?

It was partly for myself. It was a way to organize my thoughts, an exercise in intellectual development. When I wrote it, I wasn't even sure anyone would read it, but I did know—or thought I knew—that there was an interest in the mysteries of consciousness. I had already published articles and given lectures before, like the TED Talk that became very popular at the time. I suppose that's when I realized there were people willing to learn about the brain and cognition, and that, therefore, I could write for a real audience. Also, I believed I could say things that hadn't been said before, or at least from a different perspective.

Did you find a way to offer that "different" perspective?

I think so, especially if the reader is looking for a combination of science and philosophy. The book begins with ideas that are familiar to everyone, and gradually introduces details, but details that go against intuition, plot twists that challenge the reader's beliefs. Ultimately, the notion of "self" is something we all have an opinion about. It's relatively easy to speak from common sense, isn't it? We all experience our own existence, and the interesting thing is that science sometimes challenges that common sense.

If you search your name online, many entries highlight your definition of consciousness, which you consider "a controlled hallucination." Do you think your definition is very different from that of any other person?

There are as many definitions of consciousness as there are people in the world, and that's fine because each person is the authority on their own experience. Even if you look in all the dictionaries and encyclopedias, it's very difficult to find a common definition. Within this paradigm of general disagreement, my definition is just one more.

And what does it mean?

Many misinterpret this definition and say, "Ah, if my consciousness is a hallucination, then nothing is real." That's not the case at all! The way we experience reality, our reality, is the interpretation that our brain makes of external stimuli. Our surroundings are real. Things are real. Our consciousness is real. But consciousness doesn't allow us to see reality as it is, but rather as we are.

What is the purpose of consciousness?

If you think about it, what consciousness does is gather, organize, and combine a lot of information from different modalities, for example, through the five senses. It takes them all and summarizes them in a single format that gives rise to behaviors. Consciousness offers human beings a way to interact with the world and provides suggestions for behaving well enough to continue living in the future. Consciousness draws the best from each sense, not only the five classic ones but also others like memory. In short, consciousness is a connector of perception so that the organism remains in good condition.

Is consciousness merely neural wiring, or is there something within us that transcends the physical world?

Dualism has been part of our culture at least since Descartes. It seems that when people self-analyze, they perceive that there are things that are not material, like thoughts. I'm somewhat agnostic about that because it's very difficult to prove. For now, that question is a mystery, and it has been for many centuries. How are matter and thoughts related? To address these questions, philosophy is very useful, since it raises questions that can generate turning points in human development. However, philosophy itself seeks answers with such fervor that it sometimes biases its own conclusions.

That's why science exists…

That's right, that's why science exists.

Are you a spiritual person?

To a certain extent. Just like the idea of ​​"self," the term "spiritual" also has millions of meanings. For me, spirituality is the sense of connection with other people, with the world, with the universe… My spirituality is recognizing that there are elements of our existence that go beyond the satisfaction of basic needs. Thinking about how old the universe is, who our biological ancestors are, what and why is happening in my head right now… All of that is part of my spirituality. I also meditate, and that allows me to have a more special connection with myself, or at least it helps me pay attention to the mechanisms of my own body.

Is it possible to combine science and spirituality?

I believe they can be complementary. For example, there's an organization I was involved with called the Mind & Life Institute, which has three pillars: neuroscience, philosophy, and Buddhism (and the common processes among the three). Both science and spirituality have often emphasized the illusory role of consciousness, and that's why it can be studied from different angles. Obviously, there are also areas of tension between disciplines, but it's good that they exist because each, in its own way, tries to make predictions about how the world works. Ultimately, you can be spiritual, scientific, dualistic, materialistic, or whatever without being radical, while maintaining skepticism and remaining open to potential discoveries. Why? Because you can't always analyze the brain at a molecular level; you need to adopt a holistic view. If you can't analyze a poem by examining each word separately, you can't understand the brain by studying its neurons individually. For these things, Buddhism can be useful, although it carries the risk that the premises of many spiritual traditions are taken literally. It's like religion: it's compatible with science depending on how religious you want to be. Do you believe the world was suddenly created a few thousand years ago? If you accept these kinds of dogmatic assertions, it's difficult to simultaneously have a scientific worldview. But, well, human beings, myself included, are contradictory by nature.

When you arrive at the university or the lab each morning, what makes you think that studying human consciousness is useful?

Curiosity, that's the first reason. We belong to a species of curious beings, because we have the capacity not only to ask questions but also to seek answers. Consciousness is a global mystery, because the same unknowns exist all over the planet, and it's individual because each person experiences it firsthand. Why am I me? What was I before I was born? What will I be after I die?

Does the study of consciousness have practical applications beyond simply satisfying curiosity?

Undoubtedly. At a medical level, it's extremely relevant because it allows for better diagnoses in degenerative disorders like Parkinson's, it allows us to understand disorders that include hallucinations or loss of consciousness, it allows us to understand how anesthesia works… It has countless applications in the clinical field. On the other hand, many scientists study consciousness to understand how our senses work, to understand animal welfare and their perception of pain, to develop artificial intelligence systems, and even to understand our own everyday cognitive processes. It also contributes to a better understanding of interpersonal relationships, communication… In other words, curiosity is just the driving force behind achieving other great things.

Do you think that Western culture, in which you have primarily worked, influences the way we perceive the physical world and the world of ideas?

Every culture has its own perspective, yes, but I think that in recent decades there has been progress toward a better interaction between the two major world cultures, Eastern and Western, that is, the individualistic and the collectivistic. The best thing is that we know these differences exist; before, we didn't. Before, what was right was what was our own, and what was foreign was not even to be considered. Now, fortunately, we accept that we can be wrong or that the same situation can be viewed from multiple angles. In the West, for example, we always put humans above everything else, and that's not the case everywhere. There are countries that value animals and their form of consciousness much more. In Hinduism, for example, the idea of ​​the soul is different from that of Christianity. The same is true of the idea of ​​death. For all these reasons, it's important to conduct studies under all conditions, accepting all perspectives. On a personal level, I'm currently involved in a project called The Perception Census, which is a large-scale study to understand how each individual understands the concept of consciousness. Let's see what we discover!

Can dedicating oneself to the scientific and philosophical exploration of the human mind lead to professional (or existential) frustration?

[He sighs, clasps his hands behind his head, slides slightly out of his chair, and laughs.]

Nothing more needs to be said. [I laugh back.] How do you manage it?

It's really difficult. Sometimes I envy some scientists. They take out their telescopes and see things they haven't seen before. They discover how a certain virus works. These are direct, uncontroversial findings. In the study of the mind, everything is more metaphorical, more abstract, and it often feels like there's no progress at all.

And is it true that there hasn't been any progress?

No, that's not true. Looking back, I realize the incredible evolution of the last few decades. Thousands of new ideas have been proposed, new language models… Artificial intelligence! Many of the advances that have culminated in ChatGPTs, to name an obvious one, have been achieved thanks to our understanding of the human brain. Furthermore, while it's true that we rarely reach firm conclusions regarding consciousness, at least we are discovering the reasons behind our minds, and that, for me, is more than enough.

The original article was published in Spanish at Ethic.es